Kay, thanks for providing this surprising target. Thank you also for the wonderful website you created, with photos, maps, and even a long detailed sender's report. Now, please show us the results!

last updated at Aug 09, 2004 10:06 a.m. (1 times)
Yes, I had the honour of being sender this month! Quite an experience.

Harry was hovering in the background, as the benign angel he is, for any feedback I needed, and I would also like to thank Ed for taking some time, prior to the Challenge, and engaging with me around the significance and identification of structural level hits. I can only hope to have done him – and of course all of the participants! –some justice in my categorisation of hits.

The ones that stand out this time around are Bjo and Goshengolly, both remote viewings; and for structural level hits I would commend Hanny (viewing), Curt (dream) and Sao (viewing and dream). Curt’s submission I think illustrates neatly how the dreaming mind appears to tend to focus on wherever its interest lies, in this case with the archaeological/geological aspects of the location, rather than the target itself!

I have been asked to select the outstanding submission, so I have decided to name Bjo, closely followed by Gosh. Bjo had hits in all four categories, and her submission contained several keywords related to the target’s maritime theme; Gosh submitted many accurate observations with reference to the actual target.

Congratulations to Bjo!

In evaluating submissions I have been actively looking for hits, and if anything ‘erring’ on the side of generosity – in some instances the viewer/dreamer will have to decide for them selves how good a hit theirs was. I have wanted to avoid commending ‘false’ hits, but have taken into account that, in particular, those new to the game (and I, too, rather fit into that category!) are still learning about submitting enough detail.

I did make use of the Psi Dream Key Questionnaire, filled it out while on site (before the sending), and used it for reference later. However, when it came to presenting the target in the context of the challenge I felt that the photographic ‘guided tour’ and the ‘sender’s report’, combined, were better suited to the task of illustrating the target in the online format, and so I am not including the PDKQ in the actual presentation.

The link below will take you to the web pages I created, there are four of them: a photographic ‘guided tour’ of the Target; some Maps; a Sender’s Report; and the Submissions page.

link didn't work, use link/url in next post

For logistical reasons (creating web pages at work but unable to upload from there, so taking copied files and uploading from home) I had to make a cut-off point a few hours prior to the deadline, as to what I managed to put onto the website. So, last minute submissions made after 3.15 pm BST will not be on the web pages.

I won’t be checking the hotmail account again, but will send all participants my email address.

And finally I just want to share my own little precognitive hit around the weekend just gone. The original date for the Challenge had been agreed for Sunday 8 August, since sometime early June. From around the time I had taken the photographs, almost exactly four weeks before the event, I kept seeing myself doing the sending in pouring rain. Then I learned about the Regatta and Carnival, and we agreed to move the Challenge to the Friday instead. Friday was sunny and bright, not unlike the day I took the photos, but Sunday turned out really wet… And you might argue that it’s no big thing to predict it’s going to rain in England… but all that even the meteorologists can say is that is going to rain… not when!

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

http://www.psizygy.com/rv4/rvtarget4.htm

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Terry adds: “the very vivid blue bird looked most like a peacock only it did not have a tail and it was on the floor of a feeding area or kitchen.”

Hannah:

Hi,

I'm not feeling confident about my submission but I thought I would send it anyway... I was working during the sending time and didn't have time to focus until after the fact. I did not get any sense of location or any visual images, but a few words came to mind so I wrote them down ... the words ship, either Darwin or drown, thermostat, and foundation. That's it!

Thanks! Hannah Maxwell

Good for you, Hannah, that you decided to submit!

General location: ‘Darwin’ as a word is similar to Dorset, which is the county of the target location, and also to Devon (target lies very close to the Devon border) so a possible hit.
Specific location: ‘foundation’ could apply to the structure of The Cobb.
Associated themes: ‘Ship’ is a hit in the themes category; ‘drown’ would (sadly) qualify there too; Darwin… possible connotation to the fossil findings of the Jurassic coast, I seem to recall seeing something on TV that the fossil findings shifted things quite radically in the then scientific world.
Other psi hits: --

So, won’t shift the top five, but worth submitting!

the mailbox is now closed.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Everyone, thanks for participating these first four challenges. The challenge will skip September and October, to make room for the Psiber Dreaming Conference. Depending on other plans, the challenge will probably return in November or December.

Hannah or anyone else, let me know if you want me to add your address to my announcements mailing list for the RV challenge. I'll do a mailing as soon as plans for the next challenge have been made.

Thank you for what must have been an enormous effort, that's a great site.
I scored a big nothing in this one, but it's the first time I tried awake RV, I usually only send dreams. With the two month rest period that now follows I want to try and improve my RV skills, and maybe next time do better.
To the others who participated, I'm pretty much impressed with the responses. See you all later, I can't wait to read your responses.

Leon

I haven't come across 'Cobb' in similar structures, it's usually pier, breakwaters etc, so my guess is that it's an old term or word that has become a name, for this specific location.

The Oxford dictionary says about 'cob' (skipping meanings to do with male swan and short legged horse): composition of clay, gravel and straw, used for building walls (17th cent., orig. unknown)

A cobble(stone) is a round, water-worn stone - you find many of these on the beaches in the area - used for paving.

Parapet was also used on the tablet (pier and parapet), and Oxford says: low wall at edge of balcony, roof, etc, or along sides of bridge. The inside of the Cobb is tiered, and in low tide one can see some kind of platform on the outside, at the base/water level.

The military use of the word parapet is: defence of earth or stone to conceal and protect troops, esp mound in front of a trench. The Cobb is hardly a low wall, but it does of course serve as a defence (against the battering of the sea.)

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Any idea why you thought of a dog for your awake RV?

Harry

last updated at Aug 09, 2004 12:40 p.m. (2 times)
Nice work all around! You did an excellent job Kay. I apologize again for my submission being the prototypical RV accountant's nightmare.

I have a lot more to say but not much time at the present.

I do have to mention that I was bitten by a small tiny gray (terrier-like) dog a few days before the challenge, and got a nasty but not too serious little wound on the leg. The little sucker, usually friendly, pierced a nerve just right apparently and it hurt, and still does, surprisingly way more than it seemed it 'should.' As a result, I've been angrily visualizing the little mutt (a friend's) a lot the last week.

Also couldn't help notice Rory's submission almost sounds like an excerpt of my own.

Certainly makes one wonder even if it is a bit beside the point. Sometimes in these challenges I almost have the feeling that my dreams/submissions may be drawn from or influenced by the collective of participants, a kind of 'gestalt result,' as much as from the isolated target/sender(s)...

we are after all, in a way all co-creators of the virtual event...

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Harry Bosma (Aug 09, 2004 10:28 a.m.):
Hannah or anyone else, let me know if you want me to add your address to my announcements mailing list for the RV challenge. I'll do a mailing as soon as plans for the next challenge have been made.

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Thanks so much Kay, I am glad I wasn't too late.

Harry, YES, I would love to receive e-mail reminders. I will be sure to send you my address.

Interesting that so many people are reporting issues with dogs. A poisonous snake bit my oldest dog on the leg the day before the challenge. (I don't know what kind, it would either be a copperhead or rattlesnake based on what is in my area). We found out the day of the challenge that, in fact, it was a snake bite. She is doing well, almost completely back to normal.

I've also wondered, Sao, how much we participants pick up from each other.

Hannah

Thank you for developing an outstanding website, for the results of this contest! Can you package it up for us, to use with the next contests?

I love more than anything to see what all of the "receivers" perceptions are, from their efforts. It is a tremendous learning experience, and an adventure! There is a great deal of "mutual dreaming" and "mutually shared impressions" that come up every time, that lead me to believe that "surely, we do not dream (or RV) alone!

I enjoyed this challenge because I forced myself to follow stricter RV guidelines than I usually do. I forced myself to focus on seeing, and depicting shapes and lines, hoping of course, for some complete "vision," or "picture," of the site, but I knew that first and foremost that I had to be disciplined in the method that Dale Graff teaches for RV viewings. I held little hope of success, but was ultimately pleased that I practiced a little more self-discipline this time around, because in terms of "shapes" I think I did pretty well. But I also learned that my impressions, on the naming level, clinched it for me. Describing the "cobblestone" wall, the lion, the sun, the Military Sargent's emblem, the colliseum type structure, the colors of brown and sand, all of which were "impressions," proved to be valid.

So it seems that "seeing" and "knowing," are two distinct sets of impressions, and both work together somehow, in forming a complete "vision," or "picture" of what we are attempting to remote view.

Well, a little food for thought.

Congratulations everyone! We all picked up on some aspect of Kay's location. It is just awe inspiring to me, each time we do this!

And thank you Kay, for your tremendous effort!

XO,

Goshengolly

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DreamBjo (Aug 09, 2004 04:52 p.m.):
Wow. What fun this all is. Kay, I again learn the lesson of not letting anything be left out. I had the "feeling" the maps were in a museum. So maybe they are in that museum you mentioned near the target. I am continuallt amazed at this work. Thanks for your hard work on this project.
Bjo

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Dear Bjo:

Congratulations to you! I love being in the top Winner's Circle with you!... You, a great "envisioner" of the deep, yet light-filled places of space! Because you offer the best glimpse of clear seeing on this bulletin board! I hope you "know" that. You can teach us here, in a way that others may not be able to do!

Here is my question: How would you best describe the way you synthesized "seeing" and "knowing" as you did in your waking RV? What approach did you take, to "view?"

I think that you have some wisdom to offer us, Dear Bjo. At the same time, I think that the answers to some questions should always remain somewhat "guarded." Perhaps you could hold off on answering my question, until Psiberdreaming III? I think that this is the best "venue" for the answer to my question.

See you then, at Psiberdreaming III, my Dear "dreaming" friend....

XXXOOO

Goshengolly

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Kay (Aug 09, 2004 10:04 a.m.):
And that link didn't work for some reason - here is the url:

http://www.psizygy.com/rv4/rvtarget4.htm[/quote]

Kay -
What an interesting exercise this has turned out to be! I agree with you that I got the lay of the land and the proper orientation of the slope, but got taken away with similarities to a place I knew. If people look very very carefully at my first picture, the figure on the far right is what I looked like -- 30 years ago!!!

I really enjoyed reading everyone else's submissions!

Curt

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Harry Bosma (Aug 09, 2004 10:28 a.m.):
Hannah, I forgot to welcome you the previous time. I'm glad you joined again. It seems to me that you did very well.

Everyone, thanks for participating these first four challenges. The challenge will skip September and October, to make room for the Psiber Dreaming Conference. Depending on other plans, the challenge will probably return in November or December.

Hannah or anyone else, let me know if you want me to add your address to my announcements mailing list for the RV challenge. I'll do a mailing as soon as plans for the next challenge have been made.

---

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Jajofar (Aug 10, 2004 01:07 a.m.):

Cobb is an archaic word for a seagull, especially a large black-backed one. My guess is that “cobb” was used with another word to denote harbour, (possibly seagulls rest, nest, or place) but the second word got lost with usage.
Regarding cobbles: the bottom of the cliffs between Lyme Regis and Charmouth used to be strewn with cobbles, small and large, and there were usually fossil hunters on the beach with hammers, braking the rounded cobbles for the fossils they contained.
Cheers Jajofar

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Jajo -
You mentioned the Charmouth. Usually that denotes the estuary of a river by that name. Is there such? In which case there might be another connection to the name of the site I saw, which is Charlestown Meadows. The site was so named after residents who came there in the mid-18th century from Charlestown, Massachusetts, which is a deep-water port (currently home to a navy yard). This in turn was named after King Charles I, under whose reign the city of Boston, on the Charles River, was founded in 1629. Is any of the history of the conflict between Cavaliers and Roundheads centered around the target location?

Curt

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Jajofar (Aug 10, 2004 01:07 a.m.):
Hello Kay
Nice photos of Lyme Rregis!
------I haven't come across 'Cobb' in similar structures, it's usually pier, breakwaters etc, so my guess is that it's an old term or word that has become a name, for this specific location.------
Cobb is an archaic word for a seagull, especially a large black-backed one. My guess is that “cobb” was used with another word to denote harbour, (possibly seagulls rest, nest, or place) but the second word got lost with usage.
Regarding cobbles: the bottom of the cliffs between Lyme Regis and Charmouth used to be strewn with cobbles, small and large, and there were usually fossil hunters on the beach with hammers, braking the rounded cobbles for the fossils they contained.
From what I remember from the early seventy’s the beach and the rocks are particularly dismal and dark on a rainy day especially at dusk.
On one lovely summer evening a storm blew up very suddenly and we watched a dramatic rescue on the east side of the harbour. A sailor missed the entrance to the harbour and was saved by the lifeboat seconds before his boat would have been smashed.
I hope this will give a bit more insight into the remote viewing participants.
Cheers Jajofar

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Kay & Jajo -
It just occurred to me to mention that the site which has the closest correspondence (both in age and material culture) to the Charlestown Meadows site is a south-facing site near Long Island Sound, located at the mouth of the Connecticut River in Old Lyme, CT!

What is the origin of the term "Lyme"? I know that British sailors were referred to as "limeys" because they brought lots of the fruit on their voyages to prevent scurvy. But surely it has an older meaning?

Curt

I had actually been looking at the name Charleston Meadows, wondering if I could link it in some way, but at the time (despite having mentioned Charmouth, and I'll try to find out what the river is called and come back on that) my focus in looking for hits lay closer to the actual target.

Lyme Regis has a river (if you can call it that!) called the Lym. I have always assumed that the name of the town and the river name derive from the same source - but then it might just be one of those things that one takes for granted because one never thought about it! And in saying that I am no nearer to offering any insight to what that source might be! (What is it about typing stuff up while online that makes it come out garbled and sounding as if I were a complete moron?! )

Old Lyme sounds interesting. Perhaps I need to trek down to Lyme Regis at some time when the museum is open, and I could look for old maps at the same time!

And I should return to my work duties now... Shouldn't be here at all...

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

And Kay is a baaaad girl, or at least employee... ...holidays are overdue, I think...

Anyway, the river is called the River Char. And here are some links:

http://www.charmouth.org

http://www.lymeregistourism.co.uk/history.htm

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

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Curt (Aug 10, 2004 04:51 a.m.):
Kay & Jajo -
It just occurred to me to mention that the site which has the closest correspondence (both in age and material culture) to the Charlestown Meadows site is a south-facing site near Long Island Sound, located at the mouth of the Connecticut River in Old Lyme, CT!

Curt

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Curt: your connections are AMAZING.
NOW what is it about them? I ask because my mind works in just such a way (but not as thoroughly!!! - but I do notice the same pattern) - it is this method of working of my mind I'm trying to figure out!!
Yours: is it possible that:
1. you "recognized" Lymme Regis in the RV
2. you "saw" it in the same way as we see any "dream" image: i.e. in terms of some possibilities related to you: archaelogy and the US.
3. your "dreaming/rv" mind then weaves these images into a story - the original "seeing" becoming just part of your life story (as most dreams do).
IF something like that is the case then:
1. we need to learn either how to stop the dreaming mind, dreaming over them,
OR
2. we need a method of "interpretation".
BUT what IS the method of "interpretation"? It clearly works very well AFTER the event.
BUT what to do BEFORE the event:
If we are dealing with some else's dream we say "If this were MY dream" and proceed to read the images in terms of "my" knowledge and concerns.
In an RV, what would happen if we tried reading these dreams as "If this were the RVers waking awareness" - i.e. we tried to separate OUT my personal elements?
I am VERY interested in trying to work out a way of "interpreting" RVs as dream (perhaps even RVS) - because my hits are NOT close in a literal sense - but are often quite related "at one remove":
e.g. "popetlog"
When I heard "parapet" my heart beat FAST - that (for my mind) was the connection. Why did I add "log" - perhaps because the parapet at Lymme Regis (and parapets in general) were initially built of logs??? Could I have got anything out of this BEFORE: no, too little, too condensed.
BUT your RV CURT: there is MUCH more meat there! How could you have read it before to make a better guess? What would you have needed to know to allow you to remove the personal and make it more "other"?
I'm going back to re-read everyone's RVs.
I LOVE this hunt!!
AND Kay I LOVE the Englishness of Lymme Regis.
Kathy

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kathy turner (Aug 10, 2004 02:13 p.m.):
BUT your RV CURT: there is MUCH more meat there! How could you have read it before to make a better guess? What would you have needed to know to allow you to remove the personal and make it more "other"?
I'm going back to re-read everyone's RVs.
I LOVE this hunt!!
AND Kay I LOVE the Englishness of Lymme Regis.
Kathy

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Kathy -
Good questions! Let's all remember that Rome was not built in a day. We are only in the fourth month of our experiment (unless you want to count Dale's PDC RV event last year), and already we are developing a better sense of how to go about this. We are learning as we go! I am impressed with how everyone's degree of focus has improved as the months have gone by. We are building something extraordinary here!

Curt

I just wanted to congratulate you on the superb job you did on this RV challenge, not only in choosing a distinctive target, in the painstaking and thorough way in which you presented the target site to participants, but in the effort you put into judging the entries and looking for hits and correlations. You definitely went the extra mile and it shows - which seems all the more impressive as you've never done this before.

As you've seen though, judging can prove especially difficult, as the dream reports (or RV reports) often neglect to properly describe just what the participant experienced in a way that allows an outside party to find, or to judge, the quality of a hit. Participants name objects - presumably circular or semicircular - but neglect to describe their shape, or their color or texture.

Of course, participants can learn to improve the "judgability" of their submissions by learning how, and taking the time , to better describe what they experience in their reports. To do this they need to learn new descriptive skills, and then to mindfully use these skills (as Bjo and Gosh did for example) when writing out and submitting their entries. However, even the best written dream report will retain plenty of ambiguities, and accompanying sketches or illustrations can really help the judging process far more effective and reliable (Sao did an amazing job!).

But as we've seen, especially with Curt's entry, although 20/20 hindsight can bring to light some really amazing hits or correlation's, that 20/20 foresight seems far more difficult. When we write down our dreams, or our RV reports, we decide what to include and what not to include. This process often seems pretty unreliable - so unreliable that the percipient throws out "the psi-baby with the bath water", or instead, writes up a report on the "bath water" after throwing out the "psi-baby".

What can one do? Well to begin, it seems important to at first do ones best to submit formal, comprehensive dream reports. This in itself requires both training - in descriptive reporting - and mindfulness. Later one can use 20/20 hindsight to separate the wheat from the chaff. As the percipients grow in experience, they may find certain cues or qualities that mark psi-content (as Robert Waggoner has done for his precognitive dreams). At this point I'd still recommend that percipients submit comprehensive reports, but that they highlight what they consider the wheat - by using boldface or italics on those sections of the reports, or on those sections of their diagrams. They might also want to include an analysis of what they consider psi-content after the report - this will allow them to get feedback as to the accuracy of there abilities to separate psi-information out before seeing the target. And good feedback facilitates learning!

Ed

Wendy, the one at wanadoo is your current address, right? Thanks for trying to find more Dutch dreamers next time. I'd love to see more people from other countries, and my own country seems a good start.

Harry

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Ed K (Aug 11, 2004 09:18 a.m.):

What can one do? Well to begin, it seems important to at first do ones best to submit formal, comprehensive dream reports. This in itself requires both training - in descriptive reporting - and mindfulness. Later one can use 20/20 hindsight to separate the wheat from the chaff. As the percipients grow in experience, they may find certain cues or qualities that mark psi-content (as Robert Waggoner has done for his precognitive dreams). At this point I'd still recommend that percipients submit comprehensive reports, but that they highlight what they consider the wheat - by using boldface or italics on those sections of the reports, or on those sections of their diagrams. They might also want to include an analysis of what they consider psi-content after the report - this will allow them to get feedback as to the accuracy of there abilities to separate psi-information out before seeing the target. And good feedback facilitates learning!

Ed

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Ed -
This is a really creative suggestion! Maybe you could suggest this as one of the parameters for the PDC RV activities?

If I were to have done the highlighting with my dream (before knowing anything in waking reality about the target), I probably would have highlighted the slope, the south-facing aspect, and the snow cover. Two of these, at least, turned out to be among the aspects that seemed to relate to the target. I probably would have eliminated anything having to do with sneaking onto the site, or archaeology, or the spectral visitation -- these didn't have the feel of being as important as the location itself. The name of the site, while it may have turned out to be significant in retrospect, was actually not mentioned in the dream; I added it to my account by way of explanation. Lillian's ghost simply told me to go to her site and look for more artifacts!

BTW, doesn't the term "artifact" mean a statistical or methodological error in psychological research?

Cheers,
Curt

Ed[/quote]

GREAT Ed.
This shift from trying to see if there is Psi perception, to saying "YES there is and now let me try to work out how to pin point it" is very significant - quite amazing really!!
Kathy

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rannva (Aug 10, 2004 11:43 p.m.):
I think that with enough imagination we all can "feel" some recognition of the place. Especially if we want to. I'm just not sure that is a valid way of doing this sort of thing. But it certainly is fun!

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Rannva - the "feeling" I have sometimes is of quite a different order - it HITS me - it is like my mind and the word/image are two magnets so attracted to each other that they slam together - there is no separating them. There is a LARGE connection.
How else can I express it? Just occassionally you meet someone, and all your body and mind starts buzzing - there's a connection that is ALIVE. It's like that.
And to look at it from another angle: when images/words don't have that connection, they seem "dull" - they are just there, I read them, there is an interest but nothing more. These words/images are like bringing two books together - no attraction between the books, they can be easily separated.
I'm asking this Rannva, because, it is a distinctive experience I have occassionally. So, in the interests of trying to learn how my psi works (and trying to learn how to see it BEFORE the description rather than after ) I'm wandering does anyone else have such a feeling sometimes?
And YES, it is fun!!!
Kathy

As I've pointed out elsewhere, I settled to my own satisfaction some time ago that dream as well as waking psi exists, and no longer have much interest personally in experiments simply designed to look for the presence, or absence of psi.

My interest focuses more on how psi functions, how people can learn to understand psi, to develop psi skills, and to use psi more effectively.

At the PDC contests, participants submit dreams before getting any information about the target. The "highlighting" idea does not seem new - I've done it myself for years at ASD Dream Telepathy contests as well as PDC events, and have encouraged other PDC contest participants to intentionally do so as well. A few have - but not many.

To some extent people do so almost unintentionally - for example, although they may remember a number of dreams, they will only report on one, or they may submit all three but point out that they have the most confidence in the second. Of course many more people will tell you about this after the fact, but lack the confidence to do when actually submitting their dreams.

However, I believe that we learn by doing, and that it seems worthwhile to note which dreams, or which parts of dreams, one feels have tuned into the target through psi before the fact. And if one makes a mistake in identifying psi components - so what? A little public embarrassment perhaps, but remember, we often learn the most from our mistakes! And if you don't want to hazard the chance of publicly ending up with "egg on your face" from misidentifications, nothing prevents you from highlighting beforehand what you consider psi hits in your dream reports privately!

In any case, I certainly recommend dream report "highlighting" as a useful next step to experienced psi-dreamers who want to further develop their skills.

Ed

There's a page on my website with some information about the RV challenge. You may find it interesting to know that I've also been archiving previous RV's. The discussions here on this board would get lost otherwise.

http://alquinte.com/en/rv/

Like Ed I think it's time to move on with psi, and find out what exactly we can do with it. We already know it works, right?

Harry

When I look at the photos and I read Kay's description, the RV image of the playing dog I saw keeps tugging at me, I wish I knew why.
Harry, you say that it's time to move on and I agree that we must keep on moving forward. Yet I still think the RV's are great, they're a great experience, a good chance to practice on a global level, something I could not possibly do alone, because of the amount of people involved everyone can use everyone else as a kind of control. Surprisingly, getting an absolute "No Hit" on this RV taught me just as much as my previous hits on the RV taught me.

Cheers for now

Leon

Well then, having soaked up appreciation and acknowledgements I thought I would come back and share something of what I experienced and learned in the course of the weekend.

A few things run through my mind, now that I have put some distance between my self and the actual event. One thought centres around what I could have done better – and yes, I did hear you all, I did soak up the positive feedback! I did my best, and I did well, and I also know that I had learned a lot from the three previous challenges. I had a platform of built up experience to start off from, and I have no doubt added some to that collective experience. And while I don’t know what I could have done better, given my current level of skills and experience, I thought I would share some of what I learned through taking on the role as sender. And perhaps that will enable us to discern possible improvements for the future?

I also have a slight concern that I may have set a precedent, in that it will seem difficult to follow in my footsteps with regards to presentation, and that this could deter others from accepting the challenge of acting the sender. I know Gosh suggested that I might ‘package it up’ for future use, only at the time I felt too brain dead to engage with that suggestion… What exactly did you mean, Gosh? Just template files for the website? Or? Still, do we need to put in place a support structure that will prevent the exclusion of those who, for instance, do not have access to the necessary technology?

Do we need anything else? I edited the PDQK and put it into table format in Word, both versions of it (short and long), and anybody interested can email my self or Ed for a copy. I could write up some easy to follow guidelines on how to recognise structural level hits, based on what I learned from Ed (and in keeping with the adage that we teach what we need to learn) – but perhaps I would only replicate work already done, only to a lower standard? What do you think, Ed?

Now, let me change direction somewhat and say a few words about what I discovered while evaluating the submitted viewings and dreams. I have had some writing and editorial exposure in the past (and ultimately I would like to earn a living writing, it hardly matters what!) and this of course came in handy. To my surprise and amusement I found my experience as a fantasy role player particularly useful, not in interpreting the dream images, but in that it had trained me to comb the writings of others for anything that I could play off! Having played with people who would post three paragraphs of introversion (information, thoughts, feelings or past experiences, that my character could have no way of knowing) only to end with a monosyllabic reply to something my character had said, I learned to sift through every word for something useful! There we go again, detail and description!

Sketches… he he, poor Harry got an earful about sketches and drawings during the weekend, although he seemed to find it entertaining. I can’t draw to save my life. I can type an entire paragraph in the space of time it would take me to draw a crude stick figure. I never look at ‘pictures’ in books unless the main body of text directs me to. And I discovered in evaluating that for me most of the submitted graphics seemed almost a distraction. And yes, I do know the rationale, based on research, behind the request for sketches and do not intend to argue with that. But I observed that I had to make more of an effort with the graphics than with the written word, sometimes having difficulty reconciling the image with the written account. And I could wonder if the reluctance, not only my own, to send sketches or images might have something to do with feeling more comfortable with the written word, the description, rather than with an attempt to illustrate something graphically? On the whole, I found it easier to discern hits from the written word, possibly because I perceive the written ‘image’ as more ‘flexible’, and find it more difficult to think ‘outside of the box’ when presented with what seems a ‘fixed’ image.

Over.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Kay, I did find your aversion against drawing funny. In your email to me, you made it sound like an allergy.

Laura also was afraid of having set too high a standard. I simply disagree. I think this all is working out very well.

I expect that the RV challenge will evolve some more, and end up with even "higher standards", and more participants. Right now I'm considering a separate jury for the scoring. That should significantly reduce the work of the target provider / sender.

And to potential future senders / target providers without website knowhow, I'm willing to help out. Remember, I published Ilkin's emails on my website.

Leon, one of the things that interests me is why psi works one time, but not the next. What did not getting a hit learn you?

Harry, I know it's kind of on hold until after the Conference, but can you put me on the mailing list also? I'd love to participate in the next one.

Thanks,
judee

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judee (Aug 12, 2004 02:06 p.m.):
This is fascinating!

Harry, I know it's kind of on hold until after the Conference, but can you put me on the mailing list also? I'd love to participate in the next one.

Thanks,
judee

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Judee -
Hopefully you will participate in the psiberdreaming conference, too! There's a $5 discount for early registration!

Curt

<I know Gosh suggested that I might ‘package it up’ for future use, only at the time I felt too brain dead to engage with that suggestion… What exactly did you mean, Gosh? Just template files for the website? Or?>

I was suggesting that we re-use the template you created for presenting the results for this RV contest. Perhaps Harry could link the template to his website, since the page needs a website host. Or, perhaps ASD could establish a link for a separate "results" page for these contests, using your template?

Goshengolly

<And I discovered in evaluating that for me most of the submitted graphics seemed almost a distraction. And yes, I do know the rationale, based on research, behind the request for sketches and do not intend to argue with that. But I observed that I had to make more of an effort with the graphics than with the written word, sometimes having difficulty reconciling the image with the written account. And I could wonder if the reluctance, not only my own, to send sketches or images might have something to do with feeling more comfortable with the written word, the description, rather than with an attempt to illustrate something graphically?>

I feel the same way that you do about submitting drawings. I am far more comfortable with using the written word to convey a picture, or impression, than with using drawings or images to depict impressions. At the same time, I know that others can convey their impressions much more easily using pictures and graphics. Sao is absolutely magnificent with his ability to use images to depict his dreams, and experiences, as is Ed. This poses new questions.....

I enjoy writing, and especially writing poetry, because it comes easy to me, and I enjoy the challenge of trying to create/convey a picture, or image, or concept of something, with as few words as possible.

I suspect that for Sao and Ed, visual representations may come easier for them in consolidating or representing information.

So are we back to "preferred learning styles" (ie. kinesthetic, auditory, visual, etc.) or are we into something with a bit of a twist, such as perhaps "preferred communication styles" regardless of "learning styles?"

Goshengolly

[So are we back to "preferred learning styles" (ie. kinesthetic, auditory, visual, etc.) or are we into something with a bit of a twist, such as perhaps "preferred communication styles" regardless of "learning styles?"]

I am wondering if it is not simply the way in which the person "receives" that particular sending? Which in turn might connect to the sender. But ultimately we will probably express it in whatever way is more comfortable for us.

I'm wondering if it would be good to clarify more specifically how things are sent and received?

If the sender is sending mostly visual images - looking at the scene, etc - it might be nice to know if they are just looking, absorbing, sending, or if there are thoughts going on at the same time, if there is a mentally verbal description? Or if they allow their mind to wander - make note of where it wandered for that brief second or two. In other words, keep track of how much of the sending is visual, andhowmuch is verbal, words.

And those who receive - do they "get" first in the form of images or words? A person who is comfortable with words, might still get a visual image first, and then translate it into words - makes me wonder howmuch is lost in translation. Or, a person who is more artistically inclined to view things, might get an image, but then the need to translate it into words could be a handicap to them in the sense of keeping it pure. Also, if the sender is sending words, wouldn't htat too be a handicap to the artist?

Just rambling here - I think the purest RVs would be those that are sent and received in the same manner. Not to say it should be broken up into factions, but simply that the manner of sending and receiving for each individual might be noted to see if those that are on the same wavelink have more hits?

And perhaps whoever is doing the interpretation of the hits, maybe if they are more verbally inclined, they could ask someone else to help them analyze the visual/artistic submissions? That person may not have "been there" for the sending, but if they look at the pics they might pick something up.

just some ramboing thoughts.

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Harry Bosma (Aug 11, 2004 11:34 a.m.):
Hannah, Wendy, I've added you to the mailinglist.

Wendy, the one at wanadoo is your current address, right? Thanks for trying to find more Dutch dreamers next time. I'd love to see more people from other countries, and my own country seems a good start.

Harry

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Yes, that's the right adress! I'm really looking forward to participate next time, sketchbook at the ready!
I'll put a notice plus link on my website to alert more potential participants to the RV challenge.
Wendy

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judee (Aug 13, 2004 01:07 a.m.):
Goshengolly:

[So are we back to "preferred learning styles" (ie. kinesthetic, auditory, visual, etc.) or are we into something with a bit of a twist, such as perhaps "preferred communication styles" regardless of "learning styles?"]

I am wondering if it is not simply the way in which the person "receives" that particular sending? Which in turn might connect to the sender. But ultimately we will probably express it in whatever way is more comfortable for us.

I'm wondering if it would be good to clarify more specifically how things are sent and received?

If the sender is sending mostly visual images - looking at the scene, etc - it might be nice to know if they are just looking, absorbing, sending, or if there are thoughts going on at the same time, if there is a mentally verbal description? Or if they allow their mind to wander - make note of where it wandered for that brief second or two. In other words, keep track of how much of the sending is visual, andhowmuch is verbal, words.

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Curt

Wendy, thanks for the link!

I wouldn't mind so see more sketches, but that's just my personal preference.

To add to the above discussion: At some point, I expect that a top score will require that a jury can identify a viewed location without knowing the target. Targets we have concise descriptions for, can easily do without sketches: a windmill near the coast, a submarine in a city, the piramids of Gizah, and so on. Sketches seem unavoidable to me when a location has relatively complex shapes and compositions.

Try describing the sketch made by Curt (third RV sender):

If this is what you see, do you really want to record it in words only?

Gosh, I found your submitted sketches for the Cobb target very helpful too.

Another consideration is that not everyone has a good command of English. I'd like to open the RV challenge up to people who would normally stay away due to the language problem. I'm not sure whether it will work, but we could give it a try, right?

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Harry Bosma (Aug 13, 2004 04:36 a.m.):
Another consideration is that not everyone has a good command of English. I'd like to open the RV challenge up to people who would normally stay away due to the language problem. I'm not sure whether it will work, but we could give it a try, right?

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This seems like a good idea to me - maybe if it is stressed that people are allowed to send in any visual impression in sketch, painting or something like that, without it being necessary to send in an elaborate description, those who would have a language barrier might be encouraged to participate anyway.

I also wonder why psi works sometimes and sometimes it does not. Remember that this was the first time I tried an RV while awake, in the past I sent in only dreams.
The first thing that caught me was that the dream I had after trying awake RV was obviously influenced by the awake RV, from there the dog theme.
I've really tried to get inside my mind to find out where the dog images came from if they did not come from the sender. I made a mistake by not realizing how important protecting myself was during such an RV, I now realize the images could have come from anywhere in the universe. I also did not try to concentrate on what the sender might be sending, I simply meditated and waited to see what would happen. Now I think advanced RV'ers would agree this is probably a dangerous thing to do, but hind vision is always 20/20, isn't it?
This brings me to the question of the sender. Wouldn't it be better for the receivers to know who the sender is? I don't know, and right now I don't even want to go there. I take it that people like you who have lots of experience in RV will know why the sender is anon, I'll let myself be guided for now.

Mmmmm, this needs even more thinking over. And lots and lots of practise.

Leon

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MR Coffee (Aug 14, 2004 05:44 a.m.):
I also wonder why psi works sometimes and sometimes it does not.

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If one looks for global, rather than personal, factors, Dean Radin and others have performed meta-analyses of parapsychological studies looking for patterns in hits. Apparently, psi usually seems easier within a day or two of the full moon, and in periods of low geomagnetic activity. As sunspot activity can have a major effect on geomagnetic activity, this seems another factor to keep in mind as well.

This months challenge took place on August 6th, 6 days past the full moon.

July's challenge, with three senders, took place on July 11th, 9 days past the full moon.

June's challenge, which seemed very successful, took place on June 8th, 6 days past the full moon. It might seem interesting to set up RV challenges at different times of the lunar cycle, though I'd probably opt in general for scheduling them within a day or two of the full moon as a general rule.

For myself, I've noticed some lunar patterns in my dreaming, in that I have few if any spontaneous lucid dreams on the day before, and the day of, the full moon, with a sort of bounce back effect on the day after. usually seems more difficult

I don't know about global geomagnetic activity or solar flares on these dates, but one could look them up after the fact. Predicting them before hand seems a different story! Geomagnetic activity can also vary locally - so that someone in England for example might experience a very different geomagnetic environment than someone in New Mexico.

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This brings me to the question of the sender. Wouldn't it be better for the receivers to know who the sender is?

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Yes - and No!

Ideally, knowing the identify of the sender can really help one to tune into the target, especially if you know them personally. However, it can also bring into play interference from the conscious mind. If you know beforehand where the sender lives, for example Ilkin in Turkey, this will bring a whole host of associations into play. It also can invalidate one of the targets - tuning into the general location of the RV, as the percipient already knows it - or at least thinks so!

In early RV studies, they used to use latitude and longitude to identify the target, but as many RVers could then figure out the general location from the coordinates, assumptions and expectations biased their reports. They found out that simply assigning randomly chosen coordinates, that stood for the latitude and longitude of a target site worked better, and did not bring in the usual rationalizations. Coordinate style remote viewing of this kind did not use senders.

For a detailed and fascinating account of Controlled Remote Viewing (CRV) by the man who coined the term "Remote Viewing", and who played a major part in developing remote viewing training procedures and protocols, go to:

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/Superpowers.html

I especially recommend that you read his "Remote Viewing: The Real Story" section:

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/2.html

I guarantee that you will find "The Real Story" informative, sometimes hilarious, and overall amazingly entertaining!

Ed