I'm having a few bad days, and this thing still dragging on while the Psi Angels are starting, doesn't help.

The PSI Angels are a relatively serious group, take much time, and get little feedback. That's why I always wanted the RV to be fast, exciting, and fun. It has to engage and build confidence.

When I started this, I wanted to participate myself. That also means that I stay at some distance from the organization of a specific RV. I'm seriously reconsidering this now. I think that from now on I need to stay closer to the RV. There are tendencies that make this project more complicated month after month. As long as it all stays fast and exciting, and builds confidence, that's ok.

As to the announcement that this was special. I was afraid that some of you would pick up on the three senders, and get confused by it. That was why I mentioned it. Instead it looks like the warning itself was the bigger problem. Sorry, won't do it again.

There will be another RV challenge early August, but not during the PDC 2004 months of September and October.

Taking some rest now, which could take a few days. Business as usual for me.

Harry

Comment: Some matches I see ...- multiple people in the boating party, traveling to an island / multiple senders, traveling to the target site. "Tahiti" - lush green parklike island, primitive / the lush green park setting, rocks. The canal of dark water surrounded by forest / the stream of dark water surrounded by forest (see rvjuly04setting.jpg which looks very much like the dreamscape I experienced). The wooden dock in my dream / the wooden bridge on the way to the target site. The paradise association of Tahiti / the paradise-like setting of the target site. The cabin cruiser seemed pretty flimsy - more like an large old volkswagon van with thin walls, faded pink-red and white paint. I had this dream at about 9 AM EDT, Sunday, 6 hours before the three senders arrived at the target site. Of course, this dream has many matches with Ilkin's dream. Ilkin do you know about what time did you had your dream? Considering our different time zones, unless you had a dream in the afternoon they probably don't match, but I still feel curious.

Ed]

Ed: What I like about your recounting of your dream is, amongst other things, that you percieved being "blocked," in your dream, and a woman telling you that you had to wait until tomorrow (which was the sending day.)

Ilkin complained that she felt "blocked" from this RV session somehow. Sao felt "blocking energy" as did Kay(?).

My effort (and the RV sending Team's effort) was definitely directed towards blocking all of you, until the appointed session start date and time. I think we did a good job at that!

I chose to break from the team to send a picture of a van, because I wanted to use a symbol that could be easily validated (a yellow van) and to ensure that no one "saw" Turtle or Rabbit, in advance of the appointed time.

In the end, Ilkin did tie her impressions together intuitively, by linking into a remembered dream of Noah, and an Island. How she did this, how "that" particular dream "emerged" from her lifetime collection of dreams, remains a mystery....

Also, I would like to add, that you may have a "hit" with your reference to Tahiti. My favorite statement to use with others, when I am feeling overwhelmed, or want to run away from life, or some difficult circumstance, is to say: "Okay, enough is enough! I'm heading to Tahiti!!"

---

Curt attempted to protect the group, and our foreknowledge, by placing a white light around the group, keeping our knowledge secret until the time of the event. I took an extra precaution, unbeknownst to Curt and Phil, and created an image of a van that I could project, in the event I "felt" someone using some psi-snooping ahead of time. So, for the four days prior to the event, I actually did end up sending out the picture of a van (Dodge Caravan) in the color of yellow and sometimes white) to anyone who might be psi-snooping.)

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Hi Gosh -

Let me get this straight . . . In addition to setting up a novel and complex RV target - using three senders instead of one, you and Curt took it upon yourselves to actually attempt to block psi from anyone who might try to do so through an "unapproved" channel. And furthermore, you did this for an exercise where dreaming of the target - in real time - for most of your participants did not seem an option!

<LOL!>

Your group made some, ah, "interesting" choices in setting up the protocol for this event. You brought into play a number of new uncontrolled variables - three sets of sender associations and subjective experiences, and using blocking techniques that you assumed/hoped would only specifically block "precognitive psi", but for which I would guess that you had no data on either their effectiveness, or their specificity. They might for example have had a more generic effect, or simply a distorting effect. If you want to learn something from an experiment, it usually seems a good idea not to add more than one new uncontrolled variable to a set up where you already understand the effect of the other variables.

You might want to do more analysis of the data, to see if your blocking tecnhiques had their intended effect, by looking at the subset of all dreams in which individuals attempted to tune into the target site before 3 PM EDT. Did these dreams seem more accurate, as accurate, or less accurate than those that took place after the viewing - i.e. did dream retrocognition work better than dream precognition? However, given the other variables - for example, the three choices of senders, with whom some participants might have tuned better than others, or where one might have sent the strongest subjective signal - even a tentative analysis probably seems unworkable.

Ed

P.S. One last thought - Gosh, I don't suppose you ever identified yourself with the Wicked Witch of the West in the The Wizard of Oz? If so, that might explain the attack of the rabid monkeys! <g>

HaH!!!! I like your metaphor of the monkey's Ed, because this morning my hypnopompic imagery included a group of "playful monkeys" falling from the ethers in front of my eyes! Not to mention the fact that Phil referenced Curt as the great Oz, hiding behind a curtain, at our meeting just prior to the RV sending event.

Okay, I am just the person spilling the beans, so don't be too harsh on the messenger!

You see, there was "something special" about this month's RV contest, in many more ways than was apparently thought.

And yes, there were confounding variables added, so that is why it is important for us to know all of the details of one's RV impressions, or dreams, either pre-cognitively, in real time, or retro-cognitively.

At this point, it would be helpful for participants to post whether their RV's or dreams were precognitive (before the sending) in realtime (at the appointed date/hour) or retrocognitive (after the sending)!

The surprises were never intended to be negative, but merely "unexpected!" So, shipmates, let's explore all the ramifications of the newly divulged "twists and turns!" This is, afterall, an experimental contest, one that is both adventurous and exciting! On to Tahiti, not to escape this time, but to Explore!

We are learning... and testing... and trying some new things here! That is a good thing!

XO,

Goshengolly

P.S.
Ed says: [P.S. One last thought - Gosh, I don't suppose you ever identified yourself with the Wicked Witch of the West in the The Wizard of Oz? If so, that might explain the attack of the rabid monkeys! <g>]

Ed, such a wicked statement! If I practiced black magic I'd turn you into a toad right now!

Surely, I am the good Witch of the North.... But you can believe what you wish! "..poof!..." disappearing now... <G>

Thank you for your rousing enthusiasm and support! You are a true "adventurer" of this most exhilirating wilderness that we have ventured into!

XXXXXOOOOO

Goshengolly

My RV was real time, and the dream... er... r-e-t-r-o-c-o-g-n-i-t-i-v-e. Retrocognitive. I didn't know such a word existed.

Oh, and it was me with the 'sore' head and the tense solar plexus.

And if I accept the possibility of having spent the 30 mins RV under the turtle, then I suppose that accounts for staring into blackness, rather than there being a block or barrier...

he he, this is getting more and more interesting! (It's late and I'm running out of 'bounce' though...)

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Here's another mind-bending twist for you: Perhaps you "were" the turtle. Phil spent a great deal of time observing a turtle entering the water and swimming underneath the water. And he reported a snake in the water that he was watching dive under, and staying under, the water, until it resurfaced elsewhere. So, perhaps you took on the consciousness of the live turtle, or the water snake, during this RV experiment!

Ed:

You make a lot of insinuations in your remarks against the RV team for adding new variables. I didn't know that we had an underlying theory already established about the success of one RV sender and a group, never mine (mind) a three sender team adding some new variables....

So, Hogwash. or is it Hogwarts?

Signed:
The Good Witch from the North.

P.S. BTW, I think we are playing a wonderful monkey game here, but not with "rabid" monkeys, as in your dream, but rather those cute plastic red ones that children to this day play with, and hook them together like a "skyhook," where all are enjoined as a "team of monkeys, linked together!" At least that is the "metaphor" I "see" here!

"harrumph!"

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Ed K (Jul 18, 2004 01:18 p.m.):
Ilkin do you know about what time did you had your dream? Considering our different time zones, unless you had a dream in the afternoon they probably don't match, but I still feel curious.

Ed

[/b][/3]

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- Dear Ed; unfortunatelly I didn't note the hour in my dream journal bt I must have it late morning at 12th July, which may still be 11th July for you.

- What does "psi-snooping ahead of time" means? Why to prevent? Is it logical? What than precognative etc dreams? Can't one make incubation for 3 months later if she wants?
------------------------------------------------
"In the end, Ilkin did tie her impressions together intuitively, by linking into a remembered dream of Noah, and an Island. How she did this, how "that" particular dream "emerged" from her lifetime collection of dreams, remains a mystery.... "
---------------------------------------------------
- First it was not a dream of "Noah and an Island". Second, I didn't made a tie of impressions. It didn't "emerge" from my life time collection of dreams. And it is not a mysery but a very usual thing for me to remember previous dreams in my dreams (sometimes dreams from years before). Make interpretations about my previous dreams in my dreams. The members of my dreams groups know this, heard / read many times. If one wants to make a comment on a dream, he/she must read the dream carefully and with attention.

- And Ed, after talking about Tahiti; where is it (I heard it so much but couldn't find in map). It reminded me; Craig asking me in dream to "honor lulu". I get curious. Can "honor lulu" mean "honolulu", is it some where close to Tahiti or any relation?

Thanks - ilkin

Dear Elif:
This is the part of your dream that I was referring to in a previous post, and also the part of your dream that Curt felt most "symbolically" represented the meaning of Turtle at our RV site.

Turtle represented the first land to emerge on the North American "plate," in Native American lore.

I think your reference to Lulu, as in "Honolulu" may be significant, in that Honolulu is an island, and North America is a Great Body of Land, a Giant Island!

I raised the question of why you remembered this particular dream, when you were seeking more information about the RV site. No doubt you have had hundreds of dreams, yet this is the dream that your mind drew forth, in relation to the RV experience. It presents a mystery, in that your mind could have drawn forth any dream recollection... but this was the one you presented.

Gosh.

It begin to seem my discussion and questions are turning around my own dream while my real intention on questions are for general process. At the end I am not a participant in this RV. But I still don't understand, why take a part of a dream and forget the rest or try to put barrier, or speak about "psi- sneakers" as "psi - thieves" etc. In preious RV's we put online all the submitted dreams, which people may read and understand more, may be because this time they are not all online and we have to speak only about the ones who wrote their dreams themselfs. Even if (because it is online) we have to speak about my dream, according to me the "Noah" part was the part with less connection with the RV, there were more related symbols although it was an unseccessful try according to me.

Well as I said, I am not even participant and I can't get answers to my questions which I ask with real, pure curiosity to understand. So, there is no need to discuss more because I can't still understand, find answers to the questions in my mind but turning around.

Congraculations to all the senders and participants again. - ilkin

Check out this webpage on Tahiti:

http://www.mapsouthpacific.com/tahiti/

If you look on a world map, you will find Tahiti in the eastern South Pacific below the equator, about halfway between California and Australia. It has similarities to Hawaii in the tropical climate, features and the native polynesian population, but seems less developed and has fewer tourists.

Do any of the pictures on this webpage:

http://www.tahiti.islands-travel.com/pictures.html

look similar to what you saw in your dream?

Ed

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Goshengolly (Jul 18, 2004 02:09 p.m.):
Kay:

Here's another mind-bending twist for you: Perhaps you "were" the turtle. Phil spent a great deal of time observing a turtle entering the water and swimming underneath the water. And he reported a snake in the water that he was watching dive under, and staying under, the water, until it resurfaced elsewhere. So, perhaps you took on the consciousness of the live turtle, or the water snake, during this RV experiment!

---

You know, I really think that would have been more interesting, than the actual viewing I had! I mean, at least I would have had visual perception! But it's possible that I was mostly tuned in to Phil, perhaps because of what you say. I know I had no known 'vibes' about the sender I perceived, and although I had still not decided in my mind (based on posting times/patterns!) whether Curt was in Europe or east US, he never entered my mind as a possible sender.

What I'm thinking now is: as a 'controlled' experiment this RV might have shown up a large number of variables, but it seems a wonderful treasure trove on all other levels! And perhaps the discussion needs to separate out the two?

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

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Ed K (Jul 18, 2004 08:51 p.m.):
Hi Ilkin -

Check out this webpage on Tahiti:

http://www.mapsouthpacific.com/tahiti/

If you look on a world map, you will find Tahiti in the eastern South Pacific below the equator, about halfway between California and Australia. It has similarities to Hawaii in the tropical climate, features and the native polynesian population, but seems less developed and has fewer tourists.

Do any of the pictures on this webpage:

http://www.tahiti.islands-travel.com/pictures.html

look similar to what you saw in your dream?

Ed

---

Yes Ed;

1,2,7,12,14,15,16,17, 19XX, 20XX,21XX,22,23 (the ones with XX is just like what I see from the begining, far away, others are like what I see flying over) - ilkin

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Kay (Jul 18, 2004 11:01 a.m.):

When I thought the sender was in northern Europe it was because I sensed him(?) as being to the northeast of me, assuming I was in the UK… But if I were under the turtle? Now, if the turtle’s head points WNW then the ‘template’ is ‘upside down’ in terms of the directions, yes? And assuming I kept my sense of direction while under the turtle, the sender to the northeast of me would be… Phil?

---

Kay, actually the template is oriented with the top (more or less) to the west (I brought a compass to make sure). That is how I saw it, probably because during the sending I was facing in that direction, even though I also saw some things in the template which were in physical reality behind my position. Also, what I saw representing the turtle's head in the template was a triangle, whereas in physical reality it is more cubical, and oriented a bit askew of the turtle itself. It is a separate block of stone, anyhow. Again, this might have been due to how it looked from my vantage point. Maybe you got Northeast because we were in the Northeastern U.S.? You said you had seen water to the southeast, and that was perfectly on target, since the pond (and Phil) was in that direction (and, as in Ed's dream, it was a somewhat dark water). From my POV, it was behind me and to the left!

[/quote]
Seems that in addition to detail, spatial reference wouldn’t go amiss. Not just in what direction something is, but where it is in relation to my (one’s) vantage point. And if my own viewings so far offer anything to go by, it would seem I have a degree of structural level hits, and I should perhaps avoid interpreting them at the meaning level, or labelling them? Whereas other viewers’ talents lie primarily with the meaning level, which might make for easier labelling? Is this making sense? [/quote]

Lots and lots of it

---

Now, how would one rank the levels? In addition to identifying location, site details, symbolic details, and personal details? Lots to think about…

Kay

---

Well, I tried two different methods. In method #1, each level was weighted equally. In method #2, the site details and symbolic significance were weighted twice what the location and personal details were.

Best regards,
Curt

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kathy turner (Jul 18, 2004 11:10 p.m.):
CURT - I'm sorry to ask for MORE but I'm getting more and more curious about the turtle rock:
you obviously know the area well so here are a few questions:
1. is this the largest/best formed/most significantly directed/ turtle rock in the area?

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2. are the other turtle rocks accompanied by another creature rock - such as the rabbit here?

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3. are the rocks naturally there are have they been moved?

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4. could the secret turtle rock be the template as it were - the sacred design - the idea (a bit platonic I know - but I don't know the thinking of American native peoples)

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5. the Tibetans (at least the Bon) do have the concept of psychically hiding a "treasure text" to be found when it is ready - do the american indians have such an idea?

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[/quote] AND what was YOUR flying dream about Curt?[quote]
Given the recent back-and-forth about the Wicked Witch of the West, you will find it amusing! I dreamt that a witch dressed all in black with a black conical hat flew down on her broom over an open area and psychically drew the template on the sand! (Golly, could that have been Gosh? And your little dog, too!)

Curt

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The only reason we did the blocking was that Ed had raised the nasty possibility in a prior post that he (or others) might try to sneak in to get advance info.

---

Hi Curt -

I have often raised the possibility that people might use precognitive psi to tune into a psi target site - after all, that seems a common mode of psi functioning, and a useful one - especially when participants want to use dream psi - rather than waking physical reality psi, to tune into a designated target when "real time viewing" for many takes place during the daytime.

I consider precognitive psi fully legitimate and natural - as I see it, individuals most often (but not always) use precognitive psi to simply tune into their own future experiences, by "remembering the future", just as they ordinarily tune into their own past experiences through "remembering the past".

I consider your use of the negative terms like "nasty possibility", and "sneak-in" to describe this kind of psi inappropriate, and I assume that you did not use them seriously, but as a joke. But just in case you didn't, I wanted to make my position on this matter clear.

Now I certainly believe that people have the right to keep their private thoughts private, to put up (or try to put up <g>) defensive screens or barriers against unauthorized or unwelcome telepathy or other kinds of psi-based "invasions of privacy". Whether such methods work or not, or how effectively they work, seems another question! As far as I know, no one has done much in the way of scientific research on this.

However, in the case of precognition, it seems just as unethical to me to attempt to block someone from accessing their own "future memories" as it would to attempt to block someone from accessing their own "past memories". Whether you agree or disagree with this (and I assume you agree) the question of psi-ethics seems a very interesting and complex topic, and one worth careful consideration in a group where psi-potentialities have begun to become psi-actualities. Perhaps the time has come for discussing the topic of psi-ethics in depth - it should generate an interesting thread!

Experiments such as these RV challenges certainly seem a lot of fun, but they do have deeper implications. I realize that in setting up this RV contest, you and the others involved did so with the best of intentions, and as usual in events of this kind, it generated interesting results.

best wishes,

Ed

I didn't want this to get lost among all of the discussion and other posts. Hannah, I'm glad that you found this Bulletin Board to be fun, and that you've stuck around.

You'll notice that the Boarders can be a rather rowdy lot, so sometimes it's necessary to speak up to be heard

Also I wanted to say thank you to Harry.

I hear you when you say that you're feeling a little overwhelmed. Doing all that you do PLUS the RV Challenge PLUS the Psi Angels is a whole lot of work. You deserve some rest.

And for everyone else, you'll note that I haven't been participating so much in the fun. Ever since I came back from Copenhagen, I've been running fast to catch up with myself--and all the work on the new IASD online database management system, the upcoming Membership Drive, the World Dreams Peace Bridge and a few other diverse projects including a garden overload of tomatoes and jury duty for the month of July. Nonethless, I'm enjoying watching the show.

Jean

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Ed K (Jul 19, 2004 06:24 a.m.):

Hi Curt -

I consider your use of the negative terms like "nasty possibility", and "sneak-in" to describe this kind of psi inappropriate, and I assume that you did not use them seriously, but as a joke. But just in case you didn't, I wanted to make my position on this matter clear.

---

Of course! ;-}

---

Now I certainly believe that people have the right to keep their private thoughts private, to put up (or try to put up <g>) defensive screens or barriers against unauthorized or unwelcome telepathy or other kinds of psi-based "invasions of privacy". Whether such methods work or not, or how effectively they work, seems another question! As far as I know, no one has done much in the way of scientific research on this.

---

One of the questions that might be addressed is, for how long after a psi event might such "invasions" continue, on an unconscious level? I mention this because Ilkin posted me privately with information that leads me to think that she may have tapped into my dream last night!

---

However, in the case of precognition, it seems just as unethical to me to attempt to block someone from accessing their own "future memories" as it would to attempt to block someone from accessing their own "past memories". Whether you agree or disagree with this (and I assume you agree) the question of psi-ethics seems a very interesting and complex topic, and one worth careful consideration in a group where psi-potentialities have begun to become psi-actualities. Perhaps the time has come for discussing the topic of psi-ethics in depth - it should generate an interesting thread!

---

best wishes,

Curt

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Hannah (Jul 18, 2004 08:07 a.m.):
I have a lot of Native American ancestry, (a lot of full-blooded Cherokees not too far from me on the family tree) and I'm very interested in Native American spirituality and beliefs so this was great for me!

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Welcome to the Board! As it happens, the Native person who went with us to the site last month was also Cherokee, though he is married to a Narragansett woman. Phil also has Mohawk ancestry on his mother's side. (Gosh and I don't.)

I have fond memories of my very first ASD conference in 1997, when we were led to a sacred place by a river by an Eastern Cherokee elder. There, he and his assistants conducted a ceremony (it was the day of the Summer Solstice) which included the use of a drum made from the shell of a snapping turtle. A very powerful experience!

Curt

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Jean (Jul 19, 2004 07:25 a.m.):
Here's a note to Hannah.

I didn't want this to get lost among all of the discussion and other posts. Hannah, I'm glad that you found this Bulletin Board to be fun, and that you've stuck around.

You'll notice that the Boarders can be a rather rowdy lot, so sometimes it's necessary to speak up to be heard

Jean

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Thanks, I noticed the rowdiness! I was worried that with all the controversy about how the viewing challenges should take place they may get to be too difficult to continue. That would be so disappointing!

My friend Beth (who is legally blind and doen't use a computer, and who's submission I sent in with my own) is studying remote viewing with a counselor/friend. Since I am not able to do that myself, this is a great way for me to experience it!

I can't wait for the next challenge! Are there other challenges that have to with psi dreaming? I think that would be fun.

Hannah

Leon

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Curt (Jul 19, 2004 09:12 a.m.):

---

Hannah (Jul 18, 2004 08:07 a.m.):
I have a lot of Native American ancestry, (a lot of full-blooded Cherokees not too far from me on the family tree) and I'm very interested in Native American spirituality and beliefs so this was great for me!

---

Hannah -

Welcome to the Board! As it happens, the Native person who went with us to the site last month was also Cherokee, though he is married to a Narragansett woman. Phil also has Mohawk ancestry on his mother's side. (Gosh and I don't.)

I have fond memories of my very first ASD conference in 1997, when we were led to a sacred place by a river by an Eastern Cherokee elder. There, he and his assistants conducted a ceremony (it was the day of the Summer Solstice) which included the use of a drum made from the shell of a snapping turtle. A very powerful experience!

Curt

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That does sound beautiful, I wish I was there right now.
My ansestry is from my mother's side. I live in the South where having some Cherokee ancestry is not rare. The area that I live in actually is very rural, and wooded, (in fact it looks a lot like the pictures from your site!) and I like to imagine what it was like way back.

Hannah

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Curt (Jul 19, 2004 09:06 a.m.):

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Ed K (Jul 19, 2004 06:24 a.m.):

Hi Curt -

I consider your use of the negative terms like "nasty possibility", and "sneak-in" to describe this kind of psi inappropriate, and I assume that you did not use them seriously, but as a joke. But just in case you didn't, I wanted to make my position on this matter clear.

---

Of course! ;-}

---

Now I certainly believe that people have the right to keep their private thoughts private, to put up (or try to put up <g>) defensive screens or barriers against unauthorized or unwelcome telepathy or other kinds of psi-based "invasions of privacy". Whether such methods work or not, or how effectively they work, seems another question! As far as I know, no one has done much in the way of scientific research on this.

---

One of the questions that might be addressed is, for how long after a psi event might such "invasions" continue, on an unconscious level? I mention this because Ilkin posted me privately with information that leads me to think that she may have tapped into my dream last night!

---

However, in the case of precognition, it seems just as unethical to me to attempt to block someone from accessing their own "future memories" as it would to attempt to block someone from accessing their own "past memories". Whether you agree or disagree with this (and I assume you agree) the question of psi-ethics seems a very interesting and complex topic, and one worth careful consideration in a group where psi-potentialities have begun to become psi-actualities. Perhaps the time has come for discussing the topic of psi-ethics in depth - it should generate an interesting thread!

---

Indeed it would! What I did, anyway, once you had raised the issue, was simply to put a circle around the 3 senders until we got to the site, and then to remove it. Nothing was projected out towards any other person, which I agree with you would have been unethical -- not to mention impossible, since we had no idea who-all was going to participate. (I guess if we were [b]truly/b] attuned psychically we would've known? <g>). Gosh's little diversion with the van was her own idea, which she didn't share with us until some time after the experiment was over.

best wishes,

Curt

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Please keep my personal mail out, because I had and send it much / day later your posts. And I didn't sneak any body's dream, I just heard a warning of the voice of my dreams. Should I block myself?

A thank you to all participants sending and receiving. We fill the knowledge void a bit more everytime we attempt to answer the questions. It generally creates more questions, but that's a part of the learning process, eh? To the sounds of the 1812 Overture, I sit back in the seats to enjoy the rest of the concert.
Dreambjo

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DreamBjo (Jul 19, 2004 02:46 p.m.):
My what an interesting RV challenge this was/is. I shall step in here between the charged enthusiasms and passions to make a tiny observation simply about one aspect of my own viewing, which I did promptly from 12PM to 12:15PM, which was the Pacific zone time for the viewing. The single word "philharmonic" came to me. I assumed it meant a concert of some kind. Later, I learned Phil was one of the senders. A group of players (senders) on a harmonic psychic sending energy (waves) like music on sound waves. OK, a pun, but I often find puns useful information in my dreams.

Dreambjo

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Bjo --
Very nice! I admit we overlooked that connection!

Curt

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Curt (Jul 19, 2004 05:29 a.m.):
What you have to imagine here is the possibility that Bon texts have been hidden with the object that they be found by the Han Chinese who have invaded their country, overthrown its religious leaders, exterminated the opposition, deported the people and replaced them with their own. Does that seem to you to be terribly likely? Then it is equally unlikely that the Native people would have hidden these sites for us. More likely that they have hidden them from us! They (or at least their sacred practitioners) know where they are -- they are not, and never have been hidden from them. The situation is really very similar to what you have in Australia.
Curt

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Oh -CURT - NO I didn't mean anything like this. Certainly I'm NOT thinking of you as being akin to the Han Chinese - I wasn't thinking physically - to my knowledge no Chinese in their destruction of temples or on their raids to gather sacred objects to sell on the black market etc or in their killing of monks and nuns ever had the EXPERIENCE of finding a tertu. I'm NOT saying it is being at the PHYSICAL SITE - rather I'm saying its having SOME SPECIAL EXPERIENCE ENGENDERED BY THE SITE. I shouldn't have used the Bon example - though there's a connection in my mind - just not clear - so sorry for my muddle.

BUT Thanks for the details in your replying and I very much like the witch (and its connection to Gosh eh eh!!) drawing the template in the sand - ah there's the template again - THAT is what interests me.

I've tried to think more clearly about what I was thinking. I'll approach it a little differently.

I'm thinking of mudras (hand gestures designed to create a particular mind state) and yoga asanas (also designed by their shape to create a mind effect) and the practice of visualizing this or that image (the guru, the buddha, the mandala) - all also designed to create within the person a particular mind state.

NOW it is these kinds of practices that I was thinking your template may be like. I was thinking that in becoming aware of the shape of the rock formations in your mind (the template) you may be creating the possibility of some mental transformation.

In a different and perhaps totally inappropriate language (I'm trying all angles here!) - to have experienced the template - the shape - is like being initiated into turtle and rabbit dreaming!!! (an Australian viewpoint!). And to SEE/ to CREATE such a template IS the transformation.

I'll try another language and hopefully this does not muddle it more! To experience a BIG dream/ to have such images created in your dreaming mind is to set you on the path of that BIG dream - it is to open up the possibilities of becoming whatever the BIG dream was. Much more work needed - but the BIG dream is itself the impetus to change and accompanies you on the change as it is gradually wrought. Is the template like that too?

SOOOOO - I am wandering if any of the above is possible re your template - I was wandering if the choosing of the rock formations etc was linked in any way to states of mind? ways of being? I was wandering if the aim of the rock formations might be to engender such a mind transformation by engendering the image of the shape in whoever might sit in a HEIGHTENED STATE OF AWARENESS with the rock formations.

AND - then my wandering wondering mind thought: ah perhaps THIS is what is meant by the secret site - its NOT a physical site but THE EXPERIENCE OF THE ROCK/RABBIT SHAPE.

These are the connections my non-archaeological mind comes up with - I AM intrigued.

Kathy

You know, guys, in going back over this thread I'm tickled by the apparent scenario of a bunch of witches and wizards accusing each other of... sorcery?

Still, I would make the observation that this is the second time talk of witches has emerged in the past month and a part of me is genuinely curious, if not exactly concerned, what this might tell us about the collective dreaming processes of the community? Not least in relation to our own psi related pursuits.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

In a different and perhaps totally inappropriate language (I'm trying all angles here!) - to have experienced the template - the shape - is like being initiated into turtle and rabbit dreaming!!! (an Australian viewpoint!). And to SEE/ to CREATE such a template IS the transformation.

I'll try another language and hopefully this does not muddle it more! To experience a BIG dream/ to have such images created in your dreaming mind is to set you on the path of that BIG dream - it is to open up the possibilities of becoming whatever the BIG dream was. Much more work needed - but the BIG dream is itself the impetus to change and accompanies you on the change as it is gradually wrought. Is the template like that too?

SOOOOO - I am wandering if any of the above is possible re your template - I was wandering if the choosing of the rock formations etc was linked in any way to states of mind? ways of being? I was wandering if the aim of the rock formations might be to engender such a mind transformation by engendering the image of the shape in whoever might sit in a HEIGHTENED STATE OF AWARENESS with the rock formations.

AND - then my wandering wondering mind thought: ah perhaps THIS is what is meant by the secret site - its NOT a physical site but THE EXPERIENCE OF THE ROCK/RABBIT SHAPE.

Kathy - very good insights! The secret site is contained within the physical manifestation of the site! I like that!

On both occasions when I visited the site, I was drawn to the Rabbit more than the Turtle. In fact, on neither occasion was I permitted to touch the Turtle (I ask permission, always, at a sacred site like this.) Yet, between the Turtle and the Rabbit there is a very strong current of energy flowing, back and forth. On both occasions I located that and felt it flowing through my solar plexus (which was about at the height of the top of the Turtle). I had the strong impression that the Turtle represented a feminine energy and the Rabbit a masculine energy. The polarity is bridged by the energy field. So, sitting with my back resting against Rabbit during the RV, I experienced the template as gold (the alchemical union of the opposites). That which was before me was symbolized by solid objects, but the Rabbit behind me was only suggested by diagonal lines of force which, really, sketched the exterior of the rock face. The square shape of the template corresponded pretty much exactly to the shape of the ritual space I had demarcated during the opening Rosy Cross ritual.

Best,
Curt

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Kay (Jul 20, 2004 04:10 a.m.):
You know, guys, in going back over this thread I'm tickled by the apparent scenario of a bunch of witches and wizards accusing each other of... sorcery?

Still, I would make the observation that this is the second time talk of witches has emerged in the past month and a part of me is genuinely curious, if not exactly concerned, what this might tell us about the collective dreaming processes of the community? Not least in relation to our own psi related pursuits.

Kay

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Dear Kay, thanks for keeping the metaphors lighthearted. By the Way, I am not a Witch (at least not in this lifetime <g>). I just happened to become the person that Ed, and subsequently Curt, decided to project their dream image of the Witch on to!

Okay, I think it is safe to say that the symbol of a witch (or wizard) is a symbol of "unseen" and "magical" powers, so it seems logical for one to dream (or contemplate upon) the symbol as a metaphor for the power of psi.

I think the human mind will conjure up images (waking or dreaming) that reflect powerful metaphors which represent the "energies" that we are experiencing or contemplating.

So, if in my mind's eye, I envision a good witch, I would sense some magical energy that I feel comfortable with. If I envision a bad witch, I would tend to contemplate my worries about the idea of magical energy.

Is the dream community here struggling with this energy? I think so, and would hope so. Psi-energy is powerful, and its application, whether in contests or otherwise, is not to be taken lightly. So, I think you raised an interesting question Kay, and you could always start another thread here, if you wanted to pursue people's feelings about this!

Goshengolly

Thank you......

Goshengolly
(infinity symbol x X's and O's)

Ed posed a lot of questions to us in the June RV contest. Our RV team in July was in fact "listening" to his questions, and even "grappling" with them (whether overtly, or covertly.) Here is what he presented:

<Hi all -
Thanks for all of your suggestions and additions to the list.

However let me clarify, I do not look for an explanation, so much as practical ways to optimize future experiments.

For example what makes for an optimal psi-target? Which targets seem the easiest to see, and what characteristics make them so?

In the waking world, practical psychologists have put in a fair amount of effort into perception as applied to traffic signs. With a traffic sign you want to create a sign that drivers can not only see from a good distance away - but that seems easily distinguished from other traffic signs. Distinctive shapes, striking colors, bold lettering and images play their part.

Similarly, some psychic targets seem much easier to see than other targets. For some reason most parapsychologists have devoted only nominal, if any, effort or thought to the problem of optimizing psi targets - many don't seem to have even considered this a problem at all. In this I feel they have severely handicapped themselves, and unnecessarily compromised the significance of the results of their research. For example, Zener cards - standard ESP cards - in the opinion of myself and others make quite difficult psi targets, but researchers still use them.

If one wanted to simply prove that human beings could shoot physical arrows into a physical target at 100 yards, among other things one would of necessity need to take into account both the size and the visibility of the target in order to produce statistically significant results The same of course goes for parapsychologists who want to do valid research on the question of whether human beings can shoot psychic arrows into a psychic targets.

And if you want to train people to learn to shoot arrows, it makes sense to make sure that you provide them with a target that they can easily see!

What characterizes an easy to see and easy to identify psi-target? Over the years I've developed my own theories based on my own experience, and Dale Graff has done quite a bit of work along these lines, but I think that we still have a long way to go.

Similarly, what characteristics make for an optimal sender?

We also need to do more research into what constitutes the optimal time and place conditions for a psi. Dean Radin and others have compiled evidence that the best psi results usually (but not always) take place during periods of low geomagnetic activity, with other data supporting the idea that the time around the full moon might also facilitate psi. But I think that this just seems only seems two component among many others.

If we want to progress further - to the point of developing training programs where people can learn to have reliably accurate (rather than occasionally accurate) psi, I believe that we need to bring hidden and uncontrolled variables into the light so that we can learn how to deal with them and work with them.

Yours towards greater psi-lucidity,

Ed
.

Date: Jun 12, 2004 on 06:49 a.m. >

Well, our RV team did pick a target that was simple on the structural level, yet complex on the mythological, or symbolic level, which gave participants an opportunity to appreciate the different levels of RV or dream perception, and perhaps even an awareness of identifying which levels work best for them as "percipients." ie, symbolic or mythological "reception" vs. structural or geographic "reception."

I chose a "blocking" icon that I hoped would be recognizable, which was a van, yellow in color. A very simple target. No one got this, yet Ed questioned whether the RV sending group may have traveled together "by a van."

I tried to present as many of the "RV sending" teams experiences, and remarks, during and immediately preceding the "RV sending" in order to identify to both the sending and receiving groups the many variables which may have presented themselves in the reports of the "receivers." I think that we can all see how many of the experiences and "thoughts" of the sending team did in fact impact the reports of the "receivers."

And now, I want to add a twist. Ed questioned a theory about Geomagnetic Energy, and its impact on successful psi-experiments. He also presented the theory of whether a full moon might have an impact on a successful psi experiment.

Well, on July 11, 2004, we were 9 days past a full moon, and 6 days prior to a new moon. We were essentially in the window of the last quarter of the full moon.

As for geomagnetic activity level, we were in an increasingly active geomagnetic period, which had been quiescent up until July 10th. On July 10th, the geomagnetic activity level of the earth picked up, due to increased solar sunspot activity, and it continued on through July 11th. For more detail, I have attached the following file, which should link you to a site that covers sunspot, and geomagnetic effects, on Earth, for July 11th, 2004.

I Hope you find this interesting. And to Ed (and Dale!) Please know that we "ARE" listening to your suggestions!

Goshengolly

Modification Note: I am having technical difficulties getting the attachment to link to the post. Please click on:
http://www.sec.noaa.gov/weekly/pdf/prf1506.pdf

for a "full" but more technical report on geomagnetic levels of activity on July 11, 2004, and the week preceding it. In the meantime, I am trying to correct the problem with the attachment...which gives a simpler report for a "K.I.S.S." specifically at the suggestion of Laura and Leon. Thank you, both!

XO

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Harry Bosma (Jul 18, 2004 11:05 a.m.):
Just a few quick notes.

I'm having a few bad days, and this thing still dragging on while the Psi Angels are starting, doesn't help.

The PSI Angels are a relatively serious group, take much time, and get little feedback. That's why I always wanted the RV to be fast, exciting, and fun. It has to engage and build confidence.

When I started this, I wanted to participate myself. That also means that I stay at some distance from the organization of a specific RV. I'm seriously reconsidering this now. I think that from now on I need to stay closer to the RV. There are tendencies that make this project more complicated month after month. As long as it all stays fast and exciting, and builds confidence, that's ok.

As to the announcement that this was special. I was afraid that some of you would pick up on the three senders, and get confused by it. That was why I mentioned it. Instead it looks like the warning itself was the bigger problem. Sorry, won't do it again.

There will be another RV challenge early August, but not during the PDC 2004 months of September and October.

Taking some rest now, which could take a few days. Business as usual for me.

Harry

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Dear Harry:

I couldn't help but sense your confidence lagging, yet your devotion to the RV contest growing. So I decided to post my following message here, in reply to you, when I finally located my geomagnetic site, which presents data more simply to novices, than other sites I have visited. To top it all off Harry, it is a site located in Belgium!!! I thought you would love this, since it seems to represent a synchronicity, and aspect of Lucid Living, among us as a "community" that could never, ever have been fabricated. It is a joy to me, to offer this to you, and to all of us...

For a simple, "K.I.S.S." site that will inform you about the geomagnetic energy occurring during the RV Contest on July 11, 2004, please visit:

http://sidc.oma.be/index.php3

The page I saved on July 11, 2004 is inaccessible from my computer, despite having saved it as a file. I think by changing the name of the file, it has locked me out from the live database. However, if you "explore" this site, you should be able to figure out a way to get the data screen from July 11th. At the moment, I am still unable to get there, and save it, and send it. So perhaps the message is that "one must do the work" to find the "jewel?" I am not sure. I promise that if I can get the July 11th data back, I will resend it. I want nothing more than to K. (keep) I. (it) S. (simple) S. (silly). I promise.

Goshengolly

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Goshengolly (Jul 20, 2004 03:45 p.m.):
Is the dream community here struggling with this energy? I think so, and would hope so. Psi-energy is powerful, and its application, whether in contests or otherwise, is not to be taken lightly. So, I think you raised an interesting question Kay, and you could always start another thread here, if you wanted to pursue people's feelings about this!

Goshengolly

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Nah, I'll leave that other thread for now. Perhaps it's sufficient just to consider it, and perhaps the 'witch' is an aspect of the community who doesn't feel itself heard properly, and rejects being subjected to the paradigm of scientific approach.

And perhaps it would be fun to consider just what kind of magical creature each of us perceives ourselves to be? I know what I am - a psilvan elf!

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.