There was something special about this RV. I hope it won't be an anti-climax, because I suspect some of you expected some very exotic location.

It is possible - also due to the circumstances - that the results will be presented a bit later. I'll leave it up to the target provider of this month to reveal the details.

I was late with my entry, so I haven't seen the target either. Please, Curt Hoffman, can you enlighten us?

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kathy turner (Jul 14, 2004 02:12 p.m.):
Oh NO - Curt was the sender - I wander what bit of trickery he's come up with!!! Some small bone or a shard of pottery or even a herkeimer diamond??????? Well it will be interesting to see!
Kathy

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Heh, heh, heh!

But actually, folks, the "trickery" consisted of there being three senders from the same location (as I had suggested in a post following June's challenge): myself, Goshandgolly, and Phil Graham, who is a recently graduated student of mine and a gifted psidreamer. And while the target was related to Native Americans, it was by no means small in size as Kathy suggested! More info and pix will follow, once the 3 of us have figured out how to score your entries (probably by tomorrow night). IMO there were some good hits this time around, both on the location details and the symbolic significance of the site.

Curt

At least you can give the information about the target and process, leave the scores later. Do you also testing our curiosity? I can hear your; heh..heh..heh.. - ilkin

Here is a picture of the site schematic, which Curt drew during the RV Target "sending." There's more to the story, but I'll let Curt tell it, if he so wishes!

Oh by Gosh and Golly!

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elif (Jul 15, 2004 03:10 p.m.):
Dear Curt;

At least you can give the information about the target and process, leave the scores later. Do you also testing our curiosity? I can hear your; heh..heh..heh.. - ilkin

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OK, I am posting the location details; Gosh will (shortly) post pictures.

Location: Turtle Rock, Great Brook State Park, Carlisle, Massachusetts
Specific site details: This is a Native American ceremonial site. There are two very large stones; one of them is relatively broad and flat (about 3 1/2 feet above ground surface), with a detached cubical stone at one end. This is interpreted by Native people as a turtle, with its head facing directly towards summer solstice sunset. The other, about 25 feet away, is sharply ridged, about 15 feet high, and has an appendage which some Native people think of as the ears of a rabbit. The location is about 30 feet from a small pond which contains turtles, muskrats, and water snakes (all 3 observed by senders). There are also various kinds of birds which we heard in the woods.
Symbolic Significance: In Native American mythology, the turtle symbolizes the North American Continental Plate, aka "Turtle Island". The turtle was the first solid thing to emerge from the primordial waters, and on its back people built settlements. The rabbit is usually a Trickster figure but he is also associated with the Sun, which he caused to return after an eclipse. Native people paid a lot of attention to the key points in the annual cycle, especially solstices, and held ceremonies associated with these times.
Personal details: While sending, I had the sense that I had gone out to find the receivers, tied a rawhide rope around them as a group and led them to the site. I also had the impression of a golden template which seems to be a schematic of the site. Gosh will send this as an image later. Other senders can add their own personal details.

We are still hashing out the results. It is hard, because some receivers tuned in to one of these 4 criteria while others tuned into others. Maybe we'll cite a winner and runners-up for each category.

Curt

Hmmmm...

Looks interesting, but somehow I don't think it was the RV challenge I took part in...

Rawhide rope, huh? Yeah, perhaps I got that bit...

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Very interesting - looks like I had good match in a dream I had after a very casual incubation the night before the viewing.(A non-lucid dream I did not submit - so don't bother looking for it! <g>). One question though - did you drive to the target site seperately, or did you car pool and arrive together in one vehicle, like a van? The dream I had suggested that you did the latter.

Ed

click on attachment

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Ed K (Jul 16, 2004 07:17 a.m.):
Hi Gosh and all -

Very interesting - looks like I had good match in a dream I had after a very casual incubation the night before the viewing.(A non-lucid dream I did not submit - so don't bother looking for it! <g>). One question though - did you drive to the target site seperately, or did you car pool and arrive together in one vehicle, like a van? The dream I had suggested that you did the latter.

Ed

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Dear Ed:

What color was the van? I'll explain after you answer.

Gosh.

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Goshengolly (Jul 16, 2004 07:29 a.m.):
REVISED SCHEMATIC PHOTO from Curt Showing the location of the "senders."

click on attachment

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This is not actually a photo, but a representation of something I saw while meditating at the site during the sending - it just popped into my head and stayed for some time. The schematic doesn't quite do it justice -- it was 3-dimensional, and the darker areas were impressed into the gold plate at a depth of about 1/4" -- but I realized after viewing it for a while that it was a schematic of where we were.

Curt

I don't want to take this thread off on a side issue here with details of my dream - for now, I'd rather hear what you and Curt have to say about the official and submitted entries. However, if you or Curt want to see my dream report for curiosities sake I'll send it to you by email.

Ed

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Ed K (Jul 16, 2004 08:52 a.m.):
Hi Gosh -

I don't want to take this thread off on a side issue here with details of my dream - for now, I'd rather hear what you and Curt have to say about the official and submitted entries. However, if you or Curt want to see my dream report for curiosities sake I'll send it to you by email.

Ed

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Ed, the question I am asking "is" related to this RV contest. If you would, could you please post the color of the van, and the model, if you recall it?

TY,
Gosh

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Goshengolly (Jul 16, 2004 07:32 a.m.):

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Ed K (Jul 16, 2004 07:17 a.m.):
Hi Gosh and all -

Very interesting - looks like I had good match in a dream I had after a very casual incubation the night before the viewing.(A non-lucid dream I did not submit - so don't bother looking for it! <g>). One question though - did you drive to the target site seperately, or did you car pool and arrive together in one vehicle, like a van? The dream I had suggested that you did the latter.

Ed

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Dear Ed:

What color was the van? I'll explain after you answer.

Gosh.

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Ed -
While it would still be interesting to know the color of the van you saw, the actual answer to your question is that the 3 of us arrived at a prearranged meeting place several miles away for lunch, in separate cars. Phil left his car parked there and rode to the site with me, and back to his car with Gosh (I had a later appointment that afternoon). None of us drives a van.

Curt

Curt and all whatever you do , you don't have any additional rights from the begining announcement of this. And many people are saying that they can not get in.As aýn example I have already wrote to Harry days before that; even if I can make a hit it will not be a result of a sccess but a coincidence becouse I didn't felt any connection but faced barriers. I also wrote you you can delate my mails because as a coincidence(if there is a coincidence in life) all vent bad. I m writing these as one who is considering herself not participating the RV but only send mails for my regard to Harry. Sorry. Ýlkin.

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elif (Jul 16, 2004 05:37 p.m.):
Do we have to wait a week, a month or more? .

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Everyone please understand that, with 3 senders, we are having some difficulty in reaching agreement on the scoring. There have also been computer difficulties today.

But, more importantly, I think that what matters is that you all participated in the challenge! We are not competing with each other, really! We are trying to achieve something as a group consciousness. As I said in an earlier post, just by participating we are all winners. Let's take a breath, cool our emotional reactions, and concentrate on what we have achieved over the past 3 months, and what we can yet achieve if we persevere. Of course there will be difficulties. We are trying something that hasn't been tried before, at least not in a systematic way! We will grope and stumble some -- that is to be expected. But if we "keep on keeping on" we will surely get somewhere with this. My congratulations to all of you, and especially to Harry for having conceived of this idea!

Curt

What do you mean by the saying:

"who ever tells the right will sent of at least from 9 villages. Let it be me. - ilkin"

It sounds like an important saying to you.

Please share it with us, as we await the results from the RV contest!

Thank you,

GosirenGolly

It is a more than a thousands years telling. Considering how many towns there had been more than a thousands year ago (especially in Anatolia, the current times most civilizied and crowded area- for every 9 villlages may be only one villlages Fraance, England etc) it is very understandable and open even for everyone what they do to the one's who tells the truth. Try to dream those times and than travel to dream these times...........- ilikin

You mean this one?

Or this one? Or this?

But more seriously, it will be interesting to see the results, and to have a discussion about group consensus... er... I mean, group consciousness. *winks at Curt*

Actually, I'd love to know more about the site, because those seemingly innocent photographs made me feel uncomfortable in a similar way to the viewing, and also reminded me of a dream, Native American theme (which I can't recall ever having had before), from last summer. Curt, do you know in what ways the site would have been used, other than marking the solstices and equinoxes? Would it have been a place of justice, of some sort?

Lots more questions, but I'll hold on for now.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

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Kay (Jul 17, 2004 04:25 a.m.):
Jumping Jack? he he

You mean this one?

Or this one? Or this?

But more seriously, it will be interesting to see the results, and to have a discussion about group consensus... er... I mean, group consciousness. *winks at Curt*

Actually, I'd love to know more about the site, because those seemingly innocent photographs made me feel uncomfortable in a similar way to the viewing, and also reminded me of a dream, Native American theme (which I can't recall ever having had before), from last summer. Curt, do you know in what ways the site would have been used, other than marking the solstices and equinoxes? Would it have been a place of justice, of some sort?

Lots more questions, but I'll hold on for now.

Kay

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None of the above is the one I was thinking of Kay
BUT I love the frog - and he'd definitely do - and so would the exuberant clapper!
Kathy

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kathy turner (Jul 17, 2004 02:59 a.m.):
Eh Curt, Gosh and Phil Graham - you've done a REALLY interesting thing: to try three senders - and choosing such a site. You've done a REALLY good job of posting the images of the place and Curt's image.
AND - it will even be MORE interesting to see HOW you decide - because every new way we try this it FORCES us to think of new aspects.
I was thinking today -its such a wonderfully playful game - and thinking of the incredible bravery of those who have sent images to others - and thinking of all the enormous work all the senders have put into their work.
I'm standing and applauding all of you!! (and if I could I'd add Kay's jumping jack here!!!)
Kathy

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And now . . . the results. Such as they are. One of the unforeseen consequences of having 3 senders is that each of us had rather different ideas about the results, even though we had agreed beforehand about the method of scoring. Basically, we took the 4 categories I mentioned in my earlier post and rated each entry on a scale of 0 to 5 on each category. We then took the average rating as a composite. I also tried something a little different (marked "Curt #2" in the attached table) and weighted the site details and symbolic significance categories twice what the other two were weighted. As you can see, the results are not all that enlightening! I even tried comparing the ranks statistically using the Spearman Rank-Order (rho) statistic; Gosh and I had significant overlaps at the .01 confidence interval for both of my methods, but Phil did not have significant overlaps with either of us. Discussion amongst us (which is what took up the better part of the week, sorry for the delays) did not resolve these issues.

One of the things which I noticed in going through the entries which may be of some interest for the future is that there were occasions when the receiver got an image but then let their conscious mind work on it. Usually in these cases the initial impression was more accurate than the thought process, which tended to cause it to drift away from what we were sending. This suggests that we ought in the future to pay more attention to the initial impressions, no matter how strange or prosaic they may be, "without an attempt to shovel a glimpse into the ditch of what each one means" to quote Bob Dylan.

Tjitske - right country, image of gate very accurate (but not a detail we sent; it is on the way to the site. Ranks: 7, 11, 8.5, 9.5.

Harry (RV) - round object, place of worship. Ranks: 2.5, 11, 10.5, 9.5

Kay (RV) - water, oppressed feeling (near rocks?), male sender (2 out of 3!). Ranks: 1, 8.5, 8.5, 9.5

Leslie - rope around figure, outdoor location. Ranks: 7, 11, 13, 15

Kathy - vertical wall, sunlight, moisture. Ranks: 10.5, 1, 4, 3

Kay (dream) - stone "needles", water to SE, sun. Ranks: 7, 6.5, 6, 6

Leon - building to left, rope, flying (all 3 senders had flying dreams the following night). Ranks: 12, 2, 4, 4.5

Bjo - summer sun, par, incline, wall, lines. Ranks: 14, 4.5, 8.5, 7

Gillian - circle, square, ritual, tradition, sun. Ranks: 10.5, 3, 1.5, 1

Sao (RV) - New England, rectangle, trees near water. Ranks: 7, 6.5, 6, 6

Victoria -- woods, ceremony. Ranks: 2.5, 11, 10.5, 9.5

Hannah - rabbit, religious site. Ranks: 14, 8.5, 1.5, 2

Beth - snake, bird (both present). Ranks: 4, 6.5, 14.5, 13.5

Harry (dream) - snake, lines of energy. Ranks: 7, 13, 10.5, 9.5

Diana - squiggles (lines of energy?). Ranks:
14, 15, 14.5, 13.5

If people want, I can post the original dream/RV -- but I won't do that without your permission. Or, you can post your own.

Best,
Curt

Curt, I'd say as well as not working well in a print format, the tables and encapsulated headers do little for the participants comprehension either. For instance I'm having a hard time with how "squiggles" gains a score of 14, 15, 14.5, and 13.5. Clearly must be something missing there...

On my own part, I did get some 'personal' hits, or hits that the senders might not glean from my submission. I think my conscious impressions were a little iffy-but might be significant in some way since Curt was sending a 'template' rather than the experience of the site and what I got seemed to be sort of like a partial template, But my dream was pretty interesting. I mention I was "playing a gig with s, d and k,' but did not mention (or realize myself till later) that 's, d and k' are two male and one female friend who live in three different places out of town... 'remote friends' so to speak. I also saw myself in a church, and walked up on the altar (I assume the stones may have had such purpose) and found three $100 bills, which it seems to me, may have been an attempt to tell myself that the 'trinity' had significance. Also in retrospect the 'church' was only a partial structure, or a ruin, with entire walls missing through which I glimpsed a wooded area. I also described men with brown face-paint wearing derbies (hats), but did not go into detail that these men strongly reminded me of some of Cormac Mcarthy's sort of signature "apocalyptic indian warriors" which are often seen in bizarre and incongruous scavenged clothing (such as wedding dresses). I didn't describe it but in retrospect aspects of the 'brown man' I encountered reminded me of the stereotypical 'dime store indian' - sort of a mute and inscrutable urbanized medicine man.

Also the 'tone' of both my conscious and dreamt submissions seemed a little... uncomfortable, a little angsted and paranoid... which leads me to wonder if anyone was a little 'psychically uncomfortable' at the site... (obviously Kathy seems to be picking up on this as well)

Usually in participating I feel it's proper to minimalize the information as much as possible. I try to avoid the fishiness of submitting encyclopedic lists of colors, geometric shapes and geographies, lol. Usually I submit the actual entry from my dream journal without much elaboration, but I do write these entries in a kind of shorthand to myself, or more truly, I leave out a lot of detail because I know the word images will usually re-evoke the visual image in my head without being intensely specific. Just an acknowledgment that I think in future I'll try to be as descriptive and thorough as possible about the details of the dreams/impressions.